We’re sitting in one of those dingy seminar rooms on the fourth floor of Trinity’s Brutalist Arts Block. It’s early on Monday morning but Will Stapleton, third year Psychology and English student and chair of DU Vegan Society, looks fresh and energetic. What follows is a stimulating and unexpectedly lengthy discussion of veganism, which has been typed into a written format and abridged slightly, so that we could fit it here onto the pages before you to enjoy.

Could you tell me about setting DU Vegan Society up, the success or lack thereof that it has had and your plans for the future of the society?

For the last couple of years, different people have tried to set it up individually but it hasn’t gotten through the Central Societies Committee (CSC). Last year, I saw the gap as well. I thought I’d like to set up a Veg Society or Vegan Society so I went to the CSC and then while we were exchanging emails there was a bit of confusion. They thought I’d actually already gone into them, because other people had already gone in to set up a Vegan Society. I went to meet the various people who had tried to set it up before and we formed a bit of a group. From there, we started to campaign and get signatures together. We had to get 100 but ended up getting like 250 or 300 — we gave out lots of free vegan cookies which definitely helped. …

We now have over 200 members which is really positive for us and it usually rises across the year so we expect around 250 by the end of the year. … We have loads of upcoming events both this semester and next semester including EGMs, panel discussions with guest speakers and a visit to an animal sanctuary so people should definitely stayed tuned for those events.

What about your own experience of veganism? What was the process of converting to a vegan lifestyle like?

I wasn’t vegetarian or vegan all my life by any means. When I was in secondary school I was like a normal omnivore, but I found I actually didn’t enjoy meat that much. It wasn’t until I was going to college that I started to consider it much more.

It was a very personal thing for me. I think when I stopped eating meat it wasn’t because I was being told to, or it wasn’t really because of broad or ethical concerns: there was just something that made me uncomfortable about eating meat and felt it was right to stop doing so. When I became vegetarian I felt it was a real improvement for me. It kind of coincided with a difficult time in my life and I felt that doing that was something really positive at the time. It’s always important to make small changes in your life that’ll make you feel good.

Then a couple of people I knew tried out veganism; I wanted to support them in doing that so I said I’d try it out for a little bit… I went into ‘science mode,’ researched lots, found a lot of the different papers. From that I realised there’s a lot of abuse in the industries of dairy, wool and eggs and that they’re intrinsically tied to meat industries, which I personally don’t agree with.

So as a result, I sort of leaned into veganism. I said that if I found myself not being healthy as a vegan or it was too extreme or something I would just switch back, but I’m actually finding it absolutely fine. … There’s so many reasons to go vegan: there’s the environmental reasons, the ethical reasons, health reasons. But ultimately you don’t want to dictate to people why they should be or why they shouldn’t be vegan — everyone has their own stories.

Do you think that the main factor in becoming vegan is usually down to environmental concerns or a moral obligation to treat animals fairly, or is it usually a combination of many factors?

I’m always surprised by how many people don’t go vegan because of ethical or environmental reasons, to be honest. There’s a lot who just start out by going vegan because of health and then find that because they’re vegan and they’re eating vegan food, they keep hearing about the ethical sides and they’re like, ‘oh, isn’t this nice, it’s ethical,’ and then it kind of becomes a combination of those factors. But probably the biggest demographic is on the ethical side I would think. … I don’t argue with people about veganism unless they’re really insistent, usually I just let people do whatever they want.

How would you respond to criticism on the drawbacks or failings of veganism — for example, the environmental impact of the production of palm oil, soya, maize, or more infamously, avocados and quinoa?

I think the easy way out is to say, ‘Well, veganism is far enough, do you really want everyone to make so many dietary choices that they end up basically just eating carrots from the ground?’ But at the same time, I think it’s just a bit weak, in that of course there are better ways to do it and there are worse ways to do it. Veganism is based in many ways on being cognizant of the fact that there are problems going on and then trying to solve them through your day-to-day choices.

… There’s always more ethical ways to grow things like with soya, maize, but again, it’s so much more environmentally-friendly to grow than animal products, even from a scientific point of view if you look at it from trophic levels. Obviously you want to grow it in a sustainable way; you don’t want what happened with quinoa, with native populations having issues because it became exported and then more expensive and then they couldn’t eat their base crops. But I think it’s clear that veganism is a very good place to start with environmentalism. Usually what I notice with vegan products is that they are usually very environmentally conscious. … I think it’s absolutely fair to bring up arguments about the environment and say that there are things you could be doing better and while I don’t think the solution is just to eat Irish battery-farm chickens, I think there is definitely either a midpoint or a really utopian way in which we could get to where we need to be more locally grown. …It’s great to raise questions around veganism and make it even better than it already is for the environment.

Following on from that, how do you view the stigma surrounding veganism? For example, claims that veganism is merely an ‘image,’ or that vegans are on a ‘moral high-horse.’

I can only speak for the vegans I know and the Vegan Society and we’re very inclusive, there’s no real judgement at all. You don’t have to go in and say, ‘Well, I’ve been vegan for this long,’ or ‘I’m vegetarian,’ or ‘I’m not vegetarian.’ Anyone who isn’t vegan or vegetarian or is somewhere in between always feels welcome, as far as I can tell anyway, and I’ve been told that by quite a lot of people, so I don’t think there’s a propensity within vegans to be judgmental. I think in a lot of ways it’s more individual, in that generally when someone’s vegan they’re very cognizant of their own beliefs and views of things and are trying to do what they consider morally right. They’re generally very empathetic people.

You notice a lot of activism within veganism. You could view meat industries as exploiting beings that have very few rights and are low in status in our society; in a similar way, minority movements are trying to improve rights and status for people who don’t have as much say or as much opportunity. You see huge overlap generally with veganism and people who are trying to improve social justice … I don’t think there’s any room for judgement within veganism, in the same way as in movements like feminism or environmental movements. You’re just antagonising when you’re constantly judgmental, it’s just better to be inclusive — that’s going to benefit everyone.

Do you think that governments are doing enough to promote vegetarianism or veganism? Are they taking enough environmental measures in general?

Absolutely not, no. Recent UN reports have consistently ranked Ireland in an incredibly low world position in terms of what we’re doing for the environment, in terms of policies we’ve outlaid, and in terms of how well we’ve even followed the policies we already have. You’d hope that as a result the government would be kicked up the behind a bit and do something about it because it’s kind of getting to an embarrassing level. … But I get the impression that they are starting to do more, they’re at least agreeing to things, which is always a good start because with America, for example, you don’t see that so much. I’m also surprised, because I don’t tend to be that big a fan of industry, but there are a lot of corporates who are pushing good change and good policies and even forcing governments to make better policies because at this point it’s even becoming cheaper to use sustainable energies and cheaper to work from there if you have access to them. So I think corporates are doing quite a lot in that regard.

I think some of the difficulties that veganism is having with government, in almost every country to a certain degree, is that when there are businesses that boom, those businesses end up having very significant lobbying power in government. In the US Senate, a significant number of the senators are linked to the largest meat company in the world, a huge number are linked with big dairy industries. You see it in Ireland, too: there’s a huge dairy campaign going on at the moment. … But at a certain point you have to realise that the environment is not doing so well. There are recommendations from numerous different councils promoting veganism or sustainable energy as good for the environment and at a certain point the government has to answer to that.

 Do you think that overall, the young, upcoming generation is a more conscientious one that can make positive changes in future?

I think so, yes. But I hope it’s not the old trap, where like every thinker since Greece has thought that their generation is going to change everything, but I’d like to think so. I think there have been generations that have changed a lot, like in the Sixties and Seventies and that’s done a lot of lasting good. I really see a lot of parallels between them and us, except I think we’re even more conscientious in terms of the environment, and also developments in science have been quite beneficial in understanding that. … You don’t meet many young people today who don’t care about the environment, young people who don’t want to see change. You can’t really ignore the news stories at this point, there’s just so much happening. There are islands being destroyed, entire populations at risk — the thing that personally worries me is that most of the dangers are probably going to come to Third World countries first. Look at the Netherlands: they probably should be flooded by now, but they have the resources to block them off. But it’s not going to be the same in Africa or islands in Oceania. I just hope we don’t wake up after that is all destroyed. …But I think we have to be optimistic, we’re going to be the people who will be in power and will be the force for change so I think we have a real shot at doing something good.

What are the best vegan restaurants in Dublin and the rest of Ireland?

Well, I’m from Kilkenny, and they have two ridiculously good vegan restaurants which have no real right to be there really. One’s called Truffles, it was set up by a London-based chef who had a really successful restaurant over there and the theme is basically wild mushrooms and they have the most amazing stuff there. There’s also Petronella’s in Kilkenny which is really really good, they do loads of vegan stuff, like vegan cheesecakes. It’s down this marble lane in Kilkenny and has these beautiful surroundings. Kilkenny has a great restaurant scene.

In Dublin, for fancy food, Sova Vegan Butcher on Pleasants Street is really really good and really high-quality. For a fun night out, I would recommend Token — it’s a bar/arcade/food place in Smithfield and they have both non-vegan and vegan stuff but the vegan menu is just ridiculously tasty, it’s real sort of take-out food but very well done. Aperitivo is great for vegan pizzas and gives a big student discount as well. Biggest recommendation in Dublin is Govinda’s. It’s a family-run business, and in terms of actually filling yourself up with some vegan curries and getting something that’s actually good and nutritious rather than just eating-out, it’s perfect. And you get a student discount too which is fantastic. I go there regularly.

Finally, do you think everyone can and/or should be vegan?

No, currently I would say definitely not. It’s just a stupid argument to say that everyone can go vegan. First of all, there’s not enough food sources out there just yet. With the environmental ease with which you can produce crops versus animals, there’s actually an opportunity to provide pretty much everyone a reasonable diet but obviously the infrastructures aren’t there yet. If you’re not particularly well-off, or in a country where there isn’t much food available in general, then you can’t really afford to cut out eggs or dairy. But I think given time, given that industry is evolving so quickly, veganism could become pretty ubiquitous. That’s kind of the aim: to move towards something that’s completely vegan because, in my eyes anyway, it’s really the most ethical way we can be and it’s also the most sustainable. We’re not going to be able to sustain this many people on farm animals for the rest of time, we have to figure out something different. I think it’s necessary to get to the point where most people are vegan.

 

Further information and events can be found on the DU Vegan Society’s Facebook page.